对话三十一Talk 31.
访客问：如何得解脱(moksha)？
马哈希：去认识何为解脱。
A visitor asked: What to do to get liberation (moksha)?
M.: Learn what liberation is.
访客：我应当为此练习礼拜观修*吗？[Upasana：直译为“近坐、近事”。也就是“坐在老师附近聆听教诲，或如理侍候老师”或者“走近神坛向神像顶礼致敬供养”。]
马哈希：礼拜是用来控制识心(chittanirodha)、帮助专注的。
D.: Should I do worship (upasana) for it?
M.: Worship is for mind control (chitta nirodha) and concentration.
访客：我应当作偶像礼拜吗？这是否有害？
马哈希：只要你还以身体为自己，认为你是身体，就没有害处。
D.: Should I do idol worship? Is there any harm in it?
M.: So long as you think you are the body there is no harm.
访客：如何克服生死轮回？
马哈希：去认识轮回是何意。
D.: How to get over the cycle of births and deaths?
M.: Learn what it means.
访客：我是否不应离开我的妻子和家庭？
马哈希：他们怎么妨害你了？先找出你是谁。
D.: Should I not leave my wife and family?
M.: How do they harm you? First find out who you are.
访客：难道不应该放弃妻子、财富、家庭吗？
马哈希：先认识轮回是什么。一切都是那个“轮回”吗？不是还有生活在其中却证悟的人吗？
D.: Should not one give up wife, wealth, home?
M.: Learn first what samsara is. Is all that samsara? Have there not been men living among them and getting realisation?
访客：为此实修仪轨的步骤是什么？
马哈希：要根据求道者的根器和资质。
D.: What are the steps of practical training (sadhana) for it?
M.: It depends on the qualifications and the nature of the seeker.
访客：我正在做偶像礼拜。
马哈希：继续吧。这会令你识心专注，达到专一。一切都会变好的。人们认为解脱在远处的什么地方，必须要去找出来。他们错了。解脱只是了解你自身中的自性。专注勿散，你就能了解。你的识心即是生死轮回。
D.: I am doing idol worship.
M.: Go on with it. It leads to concentration of mind. Get one-pointed.
All will come out right. People think that freedom (moksha) is somewhere yonder and should be sought out. They are wrong.Freedom (moksha) is only knowing the Self within yourself.
Concentrate and you will get it. Your mind is the cycle of births and deaths (samsara).
访客：我的心念非常不稳定。我应该怎么做？
马哈希：把你的注意力集中在一个事物上，努力保持。一切都会好的。
D.: My mind is very unsteady. What should I do?
M.: Fix your attention on any single thing and try to hold on to it.All will be right.
访客：我觉得要专注很难。
马哈希：继续练习。你的定力会如呼吸那样容易。那就是你成就的桂冠。
D.: I find concentration difficult.
M.: Go on practising. Your concentration will be as easy as breathing. That will be the crown of your achievements.
访客：禁欲和纯洁的食物会有帮助吗？
马哈希：是的，这些都很好。(然后马哈希开始入定，安静地凝视虚空，这就给提问者做了示范。)
D.: Are not abstinence and pure food helpful?
M.: Yes, all that is good. (Then Maharshi concentrates and silently gazes at vacancy, and thus sets an example to the questioner).
访客：我不需要瑜伽吗？
马哈希：瑜伽不也就是达成专注的方法吗？
D.: Do I not require Yoga?
M.: What is it but the means to concentration?
访客：为了帮助入定，有些助道难道不好吗？
马哈希：呼吸调节等等能有帮助。
D.: To help concentration, is it not good to have some aids?
M.: Breath-regulation, etc., are such helps.
访客：是否不可能见到神?
马哈希：可能的。你看见这个那个。为什么不能见神？只是你必须要了解神是什么。一切众生都永远在见神。只是他们不知道。你找出神是什么。人们看，但并未见到神，因为他们不了解神。
D.: Is it not possible to get a vision of God?
M.: Yes. You see this and that. Why not see God? Only you must know what God is. All are seeing God always. But they do not know it.
You find out what God is. People see, yet see not, because they know not God.
访客：我礼拜画像时，是否应该持咒，比如黑天或罗摩的名号呢？
马哈希：心念持诵是非常好的。那有助于禅定。心念逐渐与这种重复相认同，然后你会知道什么是真正的礼拜(puja)——即在所礼拜之神中失去个体性。
D.: Should I not go on with repetition of sacred syllables, (mantra japa), e.g., Krishna or Rama’s name, when I worship images?
M.: Mental japa is very good. That helps meditation. Mind gets identified with the repetition and then you get to know what worship (puja) really is - the losing of one’s individuality in that which is worshipped.
访客：究竟真我(paramatma)是否永远有别于我们？
马哈希：这是种普遍的观念，但这是错的。先想到他和你并无不同，然后你能把神认同为自性。
D.: Is the Universal Soul (Paramatma) always different from us?
M.: That is the common belief, but it is wrong. Think of Him as not different from you, and then you achieve identity of Self with God.
访客：不二论的教授不是说要和神成为一体吗？
马哈希：何来“成为”？动念者一直都是真实，他最终了悟这个事实。有时，比如在熟睡中或在梦中，我们忘记了我们的认同。但神是永恒的觉性。
D.: Is it not the Advaita doctrine to become one with God?
M.: Where is becoming? The thinker is all the while the Real. He ultimately realises the fact. Sometimes we forget our identities, as in sleep and dreams. But God is perpetual consciousness.
访客：在礼拜偶像之外，难道不是还必须要有导师的指引吗？
马哈希：没有建言，你又如何开始呢？
D.: Is not the Master’s guidance necessary, besides idol worship?
M.: How did you start it without advice?
访客：从《往世书》*开始。
*[Puranas梵语原意为“古代的”或“古老的”。是一类古印度文献的总称。内容覆盖非常广泛，包括宇宙论、神谱、帝王世系和宗教活动。通常为问答式诗歌体。现存的往世书非常多，其中最重要的是大往世书和小往世书。这是狭义的往世书，以梵语写成。它们通常讲述宇宙和人类的产生、帝王和仙人的世系等内容，并包含故事、哲学和宗教话题。]
马哈希：是的。有人告诉你有关神，或是薄伽梵自己告诉你。在后一种情况里，神就是你的导师。那么谁是导师还有什么关系？我们和导师或薄伽梵实际上是一体的。在最后会发现，导师就是神。人上师和神上师之间并无区别。
D.: From sacred books (puranas).
M.: Yes. Someone tells you of God, or Bhagavan Himself tells you. In the latter case God Himself is your Master. What matters it who the Master is? We really are one with Master or Bhagavan. The Master is God; one discovers it in the end. There is no difference between human-guru and God-guru.
访客：如果我们已经做了善行(punya),我希望善行的结果不会离开我们。
马哈希：你会以那种方法收获你的命运的（现世成熟之宿业*[prarabdha：过去累积而在现世成熟的业果。]）
D.: If we have done virtuous action (punya) the achievement will not leave us. I hope.
M.: You will reap your destiny (prarabdha) that way.
访客：一位智慧的导师是否极有助于指明道路？
马哈希：是的。若你持续跟随已见到的光明而努力，你会遇见你的导师，因为他自己也正在找你。
D.: Will not a Wise Master be a great help in pointing out the way?
M.: Yes. If you go on working with the light available, you will meet your Master, as he himself will be seeking you.
访客：自我臣服(prapatti)和观者瑜伽法之间有什么区别？
马哈希：智慧法和虔信法（自我臣服）是一样的。自我臣服而来的了悟，和参问法是一样的。圆满的自我臣服表示你不再有任何的“我”念。那么你的所有识种也都洗净，你也就解脱了。无论用哪种方法，到最后你都不应该再继续是独立的个体。
D.: Is there a difference between prapatti (self-surrender) and the Path of Yoga of the Seers?
M.: Jnana Marga and Bhakti Marga (prapatti) are one and the same. Self-surrender leads to realisation just as enquiry does. Complete self-surrender means that you have no further thought of ‘I’. Then all your predispositions (samskaras) are washed off and you are free. You should not continue as a separate entity at the end of either course.
访客：我们不是会因为自己的行为而去到比如说某层天国*吗？
*[Svarga: 印度教世界系统中上七层天的第三层（第一层为俗世人间），为已做善行，但尚不足以解脱的众生暂时轮回之所。此界由因陀罗（帝释天）统领。在每次世界溶解时，此层天界亦毁灭。]
马哈希：那和现下的存在一样真。但如果我们参问我们是谁，找到自性，还有什么必要去想天国之类的呢？
D.: Do not we go to Heaven (svarga), etc. as the result of our actions?
M.: That is as true as the present existence. But if we enquire who we are and discover the Self, what need is there to think
of heaven, etc.?
访客：我是否不应该想要逃离轮回呢？
马哈希：是的。找到谁出生了，谁现在为存在而烦恼。当在熟睡时，你是否会去想转世或者是现下的存在之类？所以，找到现在的问题是从何时升起的，也就有解决方法了。你会发现没有出生，没有眼前的烦恼，没有不快乐。一切都是那个；一切都是大乐；我们实际上并不被转世束缚，何必要被转世的不幸而困扰呢？
D.: Should I not try to escape rebirth?
M.: Yes. Find out who is born and who has the trouble of existence now. When you are asleep do you think of rebirths or even the present existence, etc.? So find out whence the present problem arises and there is the solution also. You will discover that there is no birth, no present trouble or unhappiness, etc. All is That; All is Bliss; we are freed from rebirth in fact. Why fret over the misery of rebirth?
出自《马哈希对话录》Talks with Ramana Maharshi
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